On Sunday, Colombians will vote on whether to accept a peace deal with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc) guerrillas who have kidnapped, killed, raped and held hostage tens of thousands in a 50-year struggle. [Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos and Rodrigo Londono, top commander of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, formally signed the agreement before a crowd of 2,500 foreign dignitaries and special guests, including United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and United States Secretary of State John Kerry, in Cartagena on Monday.] The deal was forged by Santos, who argues that it ends his country’s isolation and its cold war, and begins a new chapter in Colombia’s history. Santos, visiting New York for the UN General Assembly last week, talked with the Washington Post’s Lally Weymouth. Edited excerpts follow.
I remember, when I first interviewed former president Andrs Pastrana in 2000, about a quarter of your land was under Farc control.
Pastrana gave the Farc 42,000 square kilometres, which is more than the size of Switzerland. That was part of the problem that we had to fix through military strength.
By the time you finished being defence minister, they had less land.
Almost none. We took down the number one and two of the Farc and 63 of their commanders.
When you were defence minister, you were particularly tough in fighting the Farc — you actually went into Venezuela and Ecuador in pursuit of them. People thought, when you were elected president in 2010, you would continue to press them. But on your third day in office, you met with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to help build a peace deal. Why?
I studied the conditions to have a successful peace process. One is: We needed to have the military forces on the side of the government. Second, we needed to convince the commanders of the Farc that it would be in their own interest to seek peace. Third, I needed the support of the neighbours in the region. That is why I made peace with Chavez in Venezuela and with Rafael Correa in Ecuador, even though I think very differently from them.
How did you persuade somebody like Chavez?
It was in his interest to have a peaceful region. He understood that very well and helped me push the process in the beginning, and I am grateful for that.
Did you think that the war was isolating Colombia?
Yes, by all means. We were the black sheep of the herd — the only country with an armed conflict in the whole of the Americas. Many investors who wanted to come to Colombia simply did not, because we were on the list of countries with an armed conflict.
How much has the US helped Colombia?
The US has been extremely helpful in the whole process. This peace process is the cherry on the cake of a very successful bipartisan foreign policy initiative, which began with Plan Colombia [a US effort to combat drug traffickers and left-wing insurgents in Colombia]. Don’t forget that we were on the verge of being declared a failed state 15 years ago. Today we are a flourishing democracy.
What is the outlook for the referendum?
I hope that the Colombian people will come out and vote. If they do, I am absolutely sure that the ‘yes’ will win. If for some reason this fails, we go back to square one, to where we were six years ago.
Former president lvaro Uribe, your predecessor, has been one of your most vociferous critics. He says that the Farc did great damage to your country and that the deal should be better.
I understand not only his position but the position of many people who would like a more severe justice applied. But in these types of situations, a country [should] seek the maximum justice that will permit peace. This is the first time in any peace process where those responsible will submit to a special tribunal. They will be investigated, judged, condemned and sanctioned. So there is no impunity.
One major criticism is that if you belonged to the Farc and you killed people or committed other war crimes, your punishment is merely to go before a transitional justice committee. If you confess to your crimes, you don’t go to jail ...
Five to eight. And you have to make reparations to the victims; you have to do work that will benefit the victims.
Nevertheless, the criticism is that Farc members murdered thousands of people and committed horrendous crimes, including kidnapping Colombian politician Ingrid Betancourt and holding her hostage for six years.
She is the first one who said, “I support this process.” I personally would have liked Farc members [to spend] more years in prison. But then we would not have peace. This is the dilemma of any peace process. Where do you draw the line between peace and justice? They have been fighting for 52 years. They were not willing to go to a real jail, but they were willing to be punished and judged.
Some are also criticising the fact that army members who committed war crimes have received the same deal as the Farc ...
In a war, you have to be fair to both sides. What I said to the army is that if there are people who committed crimes that are related to the conflict, they will receive the same benefits that the guerrillas are receiving.
The Farc is supposed to relinquish its arms to international monitors. Do you think they will give them all up?
We have the supervision of the United Nations. We know how many arms they have. They have to give up their arms, all of them. Otherwise, they will lose their benefits.
But won’t some keep their arms?
A very small percentage. They won’t have the trademark of the Farc. They will be simply common criminals, and we will pursue them.
You also hear criticism of the fact that Farc members are going to be allowed to have seats in both houses of parliament starting in 2018 ...
The purpose of this process is for an armed, illegal group to ... continue their ideological struggle but through legal means.
It does seem very odd to have a guerrilla group in the parliament.
If you examine any peace process anywhere in the world, you will see this is the first condition. They want to have some kind of participation in the political sphere.
How are you going to pay for the peace?
War costs much more than peace. There are regions of Colombia that have to be conquered. We need to bring roads, railroads and schools there. Some have estimated that these regions will grow between 8 per cent and 12 per cent per year for the next few years. This is a tremendous opportunity for Colombia and for any investor who wants to come to Colombia.
Also, the drug trade is concentrated in the very remote regions. Without the conflict, we can go to those regions. So it is an enormous opportunity for Colombia to finish this embarrassing situation.
Your approval rating is 29 per cent in recent polls. Why isn’t it higher?
The peace process has been very unpopular. But I don’t govern thinking of my popularity but of doing the correct thing. I was very popular when I was defence minister — being a war hero brings a lot of applause. Trying to seek peace, you have to change sentiments, and that is much more difficult.
What will happen to the other guerrilla group, the National Liberation Army (ELN)?
We are negotiating with the ELN. I’ve told them if you want to sit down and negotiate, you need to release the people you have kidnapped.
But they won’t stop kidnapping?
They are thinking about it. We have been hitting them very hard militarily. They know they will receive the whole weight of our armed forces that are now concentrated on the Farc. They know what is coming.
— Washington Post
Lally Weymouth is a senior associate editor at the Washington Post.
